Leopold and Loeb

WEBVTT

1
00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:34.320
Discretion is advised. This is ten
minuted murder. Is there a such thing

2
00:00:34.439 --> 00:00:39.240
as the perfect crime? In nineteen
twenty three, the idea across the minds

3
00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:44.240
of two young men, Nathan Leopold
and Richard Loebe. The thought would have

4
00:00:44.280 --> 00:00:48.719
seemed more plausible one hundred years ago, before the days of fingerprinting, DNA

5
00:00:48.840 --> 00:00:52.880
testing, and cameras on every corner. And if anyone could pull it off,

6
00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:58.399
surely it would be two child prodigies. Nathan Leopold said his first word

7
00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:03.479
at four months old. As a
child, he would study fifteen languages.

8
00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:07.400
At nineteen, he graduated from the
University of Chicago and had plans to attend

9
00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:12.120
Harvard Law School after a European trip
with his family. He was a nationally

10
00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:19.359
recognized ornithologist and considered in experts on
certain birds. But Leopold was not an

11
00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:25.599
attractive person. Actually, he was
described as having an unusual appearance. Maybe

12
00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:30.719
his social awkwardness and absence of athletic
ability is what attracted him to someone like

13
00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:37.040
Loebe, someone with the magnetism that
he lacked. Richard Loebe started high school

14
00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:41.959
at twelve years old. At seventeen, he became the youngest person to graduate

15
00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:46.799
from the University of Michigan. He
attended social events, He was athletic,

16
00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:51.120
and by all accounts, considered an
attractive young man. He was a rather

17
00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:53.680
well rounded individual. In his free
time, he could often be found on

18
00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:59.599
the tennis court or reading a book
about historical crimes. He was so passionate

19
00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:04.840
about historical crimes that he enrolled in
a constitutional history class at the University of

20
00:02:04.920 --> 00:02:09.639
Chicago Law School. It was there
that the relationship between Leopold and loebe blossomed.

21
00:02:10.159 --> 00:02:14.680
Even though they both grew up in
the affluent Kinwood neighborhood on the South

22
00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:17.800
side of Chicago, it wasn't until
they were both students at the university that

23
00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:23.919
their relationship really started to develop.
The details of that relationship have been long

24
00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:30.120
debated, but it's believed that they
were lovers with similar ideologies. Their conversation

25
00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:37.159
seemed to revolve around crime. Leopold
was particularly interested in Frederick Nietzsche's concept of

26
00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:43.919
Ubermensch or superhuman, and how that
affected society and its rules. The possibility

27
00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:49.520
of an individual being extraordinary with super
intellect and the ability to rise above the

28
00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:54.159
rules that governed the general population that
engulfed his daily thoughts. It wasn't long

29
00:02:54.199 --> 00:02:59.680
before the two of them moved beyond
discussing the subject. It actually started a

30
00:02:59.719 --> 00:03:06.080
certain there perceived immunity from the restrictions
that bound ordinary individuals. They started with

31
00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:10.319
acts of petty theft and vandalism,
but quickly moved on to arson. While

32
00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:14.439
the goal had been to commit crimes
that they could not be connected to,

33
00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:19.599
they were extremely disappointed that it seemed
as though their crimes were not worth mentioning

34
00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:23.599
in any news outlets. They decided
that they would commit a crime that would

35
00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:29.840
not be ignored. Leopold and Loebe
spent seven months planning what they considered to

36
00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:35.560
be the perfect crime. They thought
through every detail the method of abduction,

37
00:03:35.879 --> 00:03:38.639
what weapon to use, how to
dispose of the body, and a clever

38
00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:44.759
way to throw everyone off. After
searching for the right victim, they decided

39
00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:51.120
on Robert Bobby Franks. On May
twenty first, nineteen twenty four, Leopold

40
00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:54.840
rented a car using the name Morton
D. Ballard. He and Loebe found

41
00:03:54.840 --> 00:04:00.680
Bobby walking to school. He only
had two blocks left to walk and refused

42
00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:03.919
their offer for a ride. Loebe
eventually persuaded him to get into the car

43
00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:09.199
by acting like he had some questions
about a tennis racket. The sequence of

44
00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:14.199
events that occurred after Bobby got into
the car were never clarified. What law

45
00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:18.079
enforcement concluded was that Leopold was driving
and Bobby got in the passenger seat.

46
00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:23.639
Loebe was sitting behind him and bashed
him in the head several times with a

47
00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:28.560
chisel, which is the weapon they
had decided on. Lobe then pulled him

48
00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:31.959
into the back seat and gagged him. With his body slouched on the floorboard

49
00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:35.199
and out of view. Leopold drove
to the site that they had picked for

50
00:04:35.319 --> 00:04:40.720
disposal that waited until it was dark
to pull his body out of the car.

51
00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:45.839
They removed his clothes and poured hydrochloric
acid on his body to disfigure his

52
00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:49.160
face and hide the fact that he
had been circumcised. They thought that even

53
00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:55.519
if the body was eventually found,
that would prolong the identification process. They

54
00:04:55.560 --> 00:05:00.560
stuffed his body in a concrete culvert
along the railroad tracks and Hammond, Indiana,

55
00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:04.399
about twenty five miles south of Chicago. When Leopold and Lowe returned home,

56
00:05:04.839 --> 00:05:10.160
the news of Bobby's disappearance had already
spread and the police were searching for

57
00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:14.439
him. Later that night, Bobby's
parents received a call from Leopold, who

58
00:05:14.439 --> 00:05:18.120
identified himself as George Johnson. He
told them Bobby had been kidnapped, but

59
00:05:18.199 --> 00:05:23.639
he was safe. If they wanted
him returned unharmed, they needed to follow

60
00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:27.680
the instructions of a ransom letter they
would be receiving. The next morning,

61
00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:31.439
they received a letter with detailed instructions
for where to drop a package containing a

62
00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:36.360
specific amount of money. Leopold called
a second time to make sure they understood

63
00:05:36.360 --> 00:05:41.839
the letter and would be doing exactly
what was expected of them. It's been

64
00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:46.480
debated why they sent that ransom letter. Clearly, even if the parents followed

65
00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:50.120
the instructions exactly, they were never
actually going to get Bobby back live.

66
00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:55.000
Was it simply to throw everyone off
the track, or were they really trying

67
00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:59.519
to extort money for some reason.
Whatever the case, their perfectly planned crime

68
00:05:59.560 --> 00:06:04.600
was about to unravel a railroad worker
noticed a foot sticking out of the culvert

69
00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:10.319
near the tracks. The police quickly
notified the Franks that Bobby's body had been

70
00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:15.800
found before they delivered the ransom money. Word got around to Leopold and Loebe.

71
00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:19.079
While Loebe went about his daily routines
and avoided drawing any attention to himself.

72
00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:25.600
Leopold relished in the spotlight. He
shared his theories with police and the

73
00:06:25.639 --> 00:06:30.199
media about what could have happened to
Bobby. Maybe the notion that he was

74
00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:35.319
like one of Nietzsche's superhumans encouraged him
to take unnecessary risks. Leopold definitely had

75
00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:41.680
an inflated idea of his self importance, considering his mistake would ultimately cause their

76
00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:46.279
demise. Where they found Bobby's body, they also found a pair of glasses.

77
00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:50.000
At that time, police work was
kind of a guessing game, partly

78
00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:56.040
and mostly intuition. However, there
was little guessing to be done with the

79
00:06:56.120 --> 00:07:00.600
glasses. There were plenty of people
in Chicago that wore glasses, but these

80
00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:03.839
glasses had a very specific hinge on
them. The police were able to locate

81
00:07:03.879 --> 00:07:09.120
the store that sold the glasses,
and only three people had those exact hinges,

82
00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:14.000
one being Leopold. The police were
already familiar with him, as he

83
00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:17.439
had inserted himself into the case.
If Leopold had not lost his classes at

84
00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:21.240
the crime scene, it's likely that
he and Loeb would not have been caught.

85
00:07:23.079 --> 00:07:28.079
During questioning, the boys confessed to
the crime, although Loeb insisted not

86
00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:31.959
only that Leopold planned the whole thing, but he was just driving. Leopold

87
00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:35.879
was in the back seat and killed
Bobby. Eventually, Loebe took the blame

88
00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:41.240
for the killing. Leopold would later
admit that he asked Loebe to confess to

89
00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:46.199
the killing because his mopsy couldn't handle
the thought of him doing it. Leopold

90
00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:49.240
also confessed to thinking about what it
would be like to murder someone, and

91
00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:56.079
admitted he found it far less satisfying
than he had hoped. Clarence Darrow was

92
00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:59.600
hired for a very large sum of
money to defend the young men. What

93
00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:03.600
he accomplished in the process of their
case would be discussed in many classes for

94
00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:07.879
the next century. He was originally
hired not just for his reputation in court,

95
00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:11.839
but he abhorred capital punishment, and
it was certain that the boys were

96
00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:16.000
going to be facing the death penalty, even though the court case was technically

97
00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:20.800
as sentencing since the boys had already
pleaded guilty. They spent thirty two days

98
00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:26.240
in court. Robert Crowe, the
state attorney, brought in over one hundred

99
00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:30.199
witnesses to discuss the details of the
crime. The defense brought in their own

100
00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:35.799
witnesses and discussed the boy's abnormalities,
their delusions and dysfunctions. One side wanted

101
00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:41.480
to make them seem as competent,
cruel killers, while the other painted them

102
00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:46.720
as young men with blurred lines between
reality and fantasy. Darrow's summation lasted twelve

103
00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:52.440
hours. During that time, he
blamed almost everyone except for the boys,

104
00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:56.360
for the crime that they had committed. He blamed the media and its sensationalism.

105
00:08:56.440 --> 00:09:01.840
He questioned the motives of the college
professors that taught their students about Nietzsche,

106
00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:05.519
and he blamed the culture that had
devalued human life through wars. He

107
00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:11.279
said the wars had increased crime and
cost bitterness, hatred, and cheapened the

108
00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:15.080
cost of blood. He would go
on to mention the parents good intentions and

109
00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:18.159
working so hard to provide such a
good life for their children, but at

110
00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:22.519
what cost, Who was actually there
to raise the young men and what impact

111
00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:26.159
did they have on them? He
pleaded with the judge not to encourage the

112
00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:31.399
lust for death. His point was
proven by the bloodthirsty mob outside the court

113
00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:37.000
house. As odd as the defense
may have seemed, on September tenth,

114
00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:41.759
nineteen twenty four, Judge Cavally considered
the loss of any more lives seriously and

115
00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:48.200
sentenced Leopold and Loebe to life in
prison plus ninety nine years. Even in

116
00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:52.200
prison, their relationship continued. They
both ended up in the Statesville Penitentiary,

117
00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:56.840
where they worked together to expand the
prisons school system. Loebe was killed in

118
00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:03.799
nineteen thirty six by another inmate that
inflicted fifty eight razor wounds. Leopold was

119
00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:07.600
a model prisoner, and in nineteen
fifty eight he was paroled. Many books

120
00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:13.360
and films have been released based on
the Bobby Frank's crime. Leopold even wrote

121
00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:18.279
an autobiography called Life plus ninety nine. He spent the rest of his life

122
00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:22.600
living in Puerto Rico, serving in
ministries, social services, and bird watching.

123
00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:28.440
The story of Leopold and Loebe leaves
us with more questions than answers.

124
00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:33.720
Who is to blame for the crimes
committed? What responsibility does society hold?

125
00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:37.440
Why do we find movies, games, and books that involve crime so appealing?

126
00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:43.720
Does it desensitize us to the actual
acts being committed? Is war to

127
00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:46.480
blame? And what about the parents
that are supposed to teach their children right

128
00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:50.440
from wrong? Or is there no
blame, but the actual person that commits

129
00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:56.360
the crime. And finally, is
there a such thing as a perfect crime?

130
00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:01.519
Considering that there are currently two hundred
thousand unsolved murders in the US alone,

131
00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:20.159
there's a good chance that someone would
say yes. That's ten Minute Murder

132
00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:24.080
for today, brief and binge able
true crime. I'm Joe the host,

133
00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:28.120
and thank you so much for listening
today. If you're new to ten Minute

134
00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:31.399
Murder, I am super excited that
you're here and chose this podcast to check

135
00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:35.679
out. If you enjoyed it,
please subscribe now. That way you can

136
00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:39.200
more easily catch up on all the
back episodes and never miss any of the

137
00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:43.399
new ones. You can also connect
with me on social media see the pictures

138
00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:46.039
of what we're talking about here in
the podcast, and if you like this

139
00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:50.159
episode, leave a rating and review
on Apple, Spotify, Audible, any

140
00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:54.879
place that that's possible. And now
our email question for today. Hi Joe,

141
00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:58.679
I love listening to your podcast Ten
Minute Murder. I have a question

142
00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:01.960
for you. Do you ever have
nightmare? Is about the murders you research?

143
00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:05.240
I did. Actually, while it
was about a serial murder case you

144
00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:09.720
presented, my nightmare was long before
ten minute murder existed. I was a

145
00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:13.279
newly wed when Jeffrey Dahmer was in
the national news. On more than one

146
00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:16.679
occasion, I thought about how horrific
it would be to discover a family member

147
00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.879
was a monster. When Jeffrey Dahmer's
evil deeds were discovered, I shuddered to

148
00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:24.320
think a person could be related to
the likes of him. Those thoughts were

149
00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:28.080
on my mind that night when I
went to bed. Shortly after falling asleep,

150
00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:31.440
I dreamed that I got up to
get a snack. Upon opening the

151
00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:35.240
refrigerator, I found it filled with
the body parts of young men. With

152
00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:39.879
sheer terror, I turned around to
find my new husband standing there, his

153
00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:43.480
face covered with guilt, and even
greater horror dawned on me as I realized

154
00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:48.120
just who my new husband was.
With my heart pounding, I whispered,

155
00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:52.720
it was you, wasn't it.
Suddenly, and thankfully, I woke up

156
00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:56.600
my new and kind husband snoring quietly
beside me. Thirty two years of marriage

157
00:12:56.679 --> 00:13:00.320
later, I can assure you that
my husband is not a monster. He

158
00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:03.840
was the safest person my mind could
use to work through the horror I felt

159
00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:07.960
at the thought that someone could have
a family member like Jeffrey Dahmer, So

160
00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:11.759
I ask you, have you had
any nightmares about the monsters you have researched

161
00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:15.679
Kelly, and Kelly didn't leave a
state or city, so it's just Kelly

162
00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:18.240
out there in the middle of somewhere
in the United States. Kelly, First,

163
00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:20.720
thank you so much for listening,
and thank you for the email.

164
00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:26.720
Yes, I've definitely had nightmares about
the research I've done for this podcast.

165
00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:30.399
I've talked about it in the past. It's been a little while since I've

166
00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:33.679
mentioned it. But John Wayne Gaycy, I have a thing about clowns.

167
00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:37.200
That one got me because you have
to look up for all the pictures and

168
00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:43.360
stuff, and those pictures of John
Wayne Gaycy, they're really happy about putting

169
00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:46.279
them on the Internet. They'll put
all of them up there, and so

170
00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:50.200
I've seen all of them. And
honestly, I don't know if I should

171
00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:54.720
mention this, but it probably at
once a month I'll have a nightmare after

172
00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:58.240
researching stuff for this case, like
once a month. And in the before

173
00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:01.639
times before Ten Minute Murder, almost
no nightmares. But there is a little

174
00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:05.639
trick that I use when I know
that I've researched something really heavy and it's

175
00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:09.080
going to be on my mind.
When I go to sleep. I'll put

176
00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:13.200
on stand up comedy on my phone
on my nightstand, I'll just put stand

177
00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:16.440
up comedy on repeat, and I'll
listen to that as I'm falling asleep.

178
00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:18.919
And then I almost always wake up
in the middle of the night because that's

179
00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.600
who I am as a person.
I'll just wake up and it's still playing,

180
00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:26.279
so as I go back to sleep, it's comedy. Some people do

181
00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:31.600
white noise or lullabies, you know, whatever kind of I do stand up

182
00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:35.360
comedy. All right, that's gonna
do it. That is today's ten minute

183
00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:37.039
Murder. Thank you so much for
listening.