Sarah Jo Pender: The Female Charles Manson Case Explained

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October 24th, 2000. A 21-year-old secretary walks into a Walmart in Indianapolis and buys

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a shotgun. 12 hours later, two people are dead. She gets 110 years in prison. The shooter

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gets 75. The prosecutor, who called her the female Charles Manson, now says he's wrong.

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But when you look at the pattern, when you see what she did in prison, when you watch

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how she's fighting for freedom right now, you start to wonder if maybe he was right the

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first time.

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October 2000, Indianapolis. Sarah Jo Pinder is 21 years old. She's working as a secretary.

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She's smart. She's got no criminal record. She's dating this guy named Richard Hull,

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who is a bouncer with a temper and a rap sheet. They're living with another couple. Andrew

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Cotaldi and Trisha Nordman, and everyone in this house is dealing drugs. This, if it wasn't

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already, is where things get complicated, because Sarah Jo Pinder had been sexually assaulted

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a few months earlier. She was feeling traumatized, and a lot of people say that she latched

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on to Hull because he was tough and he was protective and he made her feel safe. That's

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the sympathetic version. Here's another way to look at it. She found a guy who was violent

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and not particularly smart and could be controlled. But we'll get into that. So Cotaldi starts

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causing problems. He owed money for drugs. He's threatening Hull's family. The tension

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in this house is building. And on October 24th, Sarah Jo Pinder and Richard Hull drive

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to Walmart. They buy a Mossberg 12-gauge shotgun and deer slugs. Deer slugs, not bird shots

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that could wound you, the kind of ammunition that would absolutely rip through a person.

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Hull is a felon. He can't legally buy a gun, so Pinder fills out all the paperwork. Pinder

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pays for it. Pinder carries it out of the store. That night Hull and Cotaldi get into an argument.

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It escalates, and Hull shoots Andrew Cotaldi in the chest. One deer slug. Then he shoots

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Trisha Nordman twice. Chest and head. Richard Hull admitted to pulling the trigger. Nobody

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disputes that. He is the shooter. Sarah Jo Pinder says that she walked away from the argument

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before it turned violent. She heard the shots and she came back and Hull was standing over

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the bodies and she was terrified. That's what she says. If she was terrified, what happened

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next is interesting. October 25th, the day after the murders. Pinder goes to work. Shows

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up to her secretary job like nothing ever happened. Hull stays home and scrubs blood off the floors.

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That night they load up the two bodies into the back of a pickup truck. They drive to a

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dumpster behind the Teamsters Union building and they throw Andrew Cotaldi and Trisha Nordman

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into the trash. Look, I'm not saying a terrified person couldn't do this. Fear makes people

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do strange things. But a terrified person might also, when they're away from the house,

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call the police. A terrified person might run. Sarah Jo Pinder went to work and then helped

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dispose of the bodies. Those are the facts. When they get arrested, Hull immediately says

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"Pinder made him do it." She manipulated him. She's orchestrating this whole thing. Everyone

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dismisses this because of course Hull is trying to save himself. He's pointing the finger

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to get himself a better deal. Then there's this confession letter that supposedly Pinder

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wrote to Hull while they're both in jail. It says something like "I wish I could go back

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and change the events of that night." Years later, Hull says he forged it. Another inmate

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named Steve Logan says that he wrote it. Their fingerprints are on the letter. Pinder's

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fingerprints aren't. So that letter is probably fake or Pinder dictated it and had someone

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else write it. Who knows? There's also Floyd Pinington, a jailhouse

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snitch who testified that Pinder confessed to him. Pinington had a whole list of cases

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that he was snitching on to reduce his sentence so maybe he's lying. Maybe he's not lying.

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August 2002, the jury convicts Pinder. She gets 110 years in prison. Richard Hull pleads

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guilty. He gets 75 years. The shooter gets less time than the person who bought the gun

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and a lot of people think that's unfair. But here's what the prosecutor argued. The person

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who plans a murder is more dangerous than the person who executes it. Richard Hull, without

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Sarah Jo Pinder, is just a violent guy with the temper. He might get in fights. Two people

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probably don't end up dead. Sarah Jo Pinder, without Richard Hull, she finds another

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Richard Hull because the dangerous part isn't the gun itself. It's the person who knows

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how to use it. Fast forward to six years into her sentence. Pinder's appeals are going nowhere.

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She's looking at dying in prison. So she starts a relationship with a corrections officer

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named Scott Spittler. Five years on the job for him. Battery charge is pending. His marriage

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is falling apart. Pinder promises him $15,000. And on August 4, 2008, he drives her out of

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prison in an apartment of corrections van. Scott Spittler goes to prison for eight years.

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Over this, Jamie Long, the woman who helped hide her, gets seven years. For four months,

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Pinder lives in Chicago under the name Ashley Thompson. She gets a job. Her coworkers like her.

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Her neighbors think she's pleasant and normal. A neighborhood watches America's most wanted,

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recognizes her, and calls it in. Chicago police rate her apartment on December 22, 2008.

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Pinder goes back to Indiana. She gets put in solitary confinement for over five years. And

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look, maybe that part was excessive. Maybe that was cruel. She sued and won a settlement.

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But she also manipulated a prison guard into committing a felony for her. Actions have consequences.

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Here's what keeps bothering me about this case. Everywhere Sarah Jo Pinder goes, people

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end up doing things they wouldn't ordinarily do. Richard Hull shoots two people. Scott Spittler

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throws away his career and his freedom to drive her out of prison. Jamie Long risks seven

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years to hide a fugitive. And now the prosecutor who once called her female Charles Manson says

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he's wrong. Larry Cells is retired. He found the snitch list. He realized the confession

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letter was probably forged. He's advocating now for her release. A prosecutor admitting

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that he made a mistake is powerful. It's the kind of thing that makes you reconsider

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everything. But Sarah Jo Pinder has spent 25 years in prison. She's earned two associate

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degrees. She's taken every class available. Georgetown students are making documentaries

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about her. Professors call her one of the smartest students they've ever taught. She's

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built a whole movement around the idea that she's a victim of a broken system.

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December 5, 2025. Pinder appears before Judge James Snyder. She's asking to run her sentences

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concurrently instead of consecutively. If he grants it, she walks free immediately. Witnesses

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testify about her transformation. Her father talks about the love she shared with her late

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wife Amanda Dixon, who died of cancer in 2024. A documentary filmmaker says Pinder

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inspired her. Pinder speaks to the families of Andrew Cattaldy and Trisha Nordman. She

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says, "I'm so sorry for the terrible loss you suffered and for the role I played in it."

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The role she played in it, not "I'm sorry I helped kill them." The role she played. Everyone

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is moved. Everyone thinks she deserves another chance.

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Sarah Jo Pinder is not innocent. She bought the gun. She helped dump the bodies. She escaped

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from prison. Those are facts. The question is whether she planned the murders or reacted

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to them. Whether she manipulated Richard Hall into killing two people or whether Hall acted

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alone. And I think personally the answer is in the pattern. She found a violent man who

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could be controlled. She armed him. She was there when it happened. She helped cover it

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up. She manipulated a prison guard. She manipulated a judge into considering her release. Maybe 25

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years is enough. Maybe she's genuinely changed. Maybe people deserve second chances. Or maybe

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Sarah Jo Pinder is exactly what Larry Cells called her the first time. A brilliant, manipulative

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person who uses other people to do violence. Charles Manson never pulled the trigger himself

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either. The hearing is ongoing. We'll see what the judge decides. But when you look at this

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case, when you really look at it, you have to wonder if the prosecutor was wrong about

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being wrong because the evidence keeps pointing in the same direction. And it's been pointing

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there for 25 years.

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Thanks for listening to 10 Minute Murder, Bingeable True Crime Stories. I'm Joe, I'm the

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host. And let's get to a couple of emails. First one, Subjects. Just wanted to say this.

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Joe, you managed to talk about dark stuff without feeling exploitive, which is harder than

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people think. I don't know how intentional that is, but it comes through. Thanks for that.

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Monica and Santa Fe, New Mexico. Monica, thank you for the email and I really appreciate

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you saying that because that is a conscious effort throughout every single episode. I tried

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to not be exploitive. I don't want it to feel that way in any way, shape, or form. I'm

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just telling stories here. Now occasionally, like in today's story, I will offer my opinion

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on the story, but not in an exploitive way. Second email, Subject True Crime Social DeLemma.

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Hi, Joe. I love your show, but I never know how to explain it to people who don't listen

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to True Crime. It's short murder stories. Doesn't always land well. Any tips? Brian in Carter's

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ville, Georgia. Brian, rather you may be barking up the wrong tree here. I think at this day

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and age, True Crime is such a massive, massive genre that you're either into it or you're

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not. People who currently are not into True Crime, you're not going to be able to convince

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them, I think, into listening to stories about True Crime. Now, if they're interested in True

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Crime, short murder stories probably is the best way to describe this podcast. Ten minutes

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limits me so that I can't tell you every single detail of every single case, but I like to

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think that I do a good job of getting to the meat of the story and tell you the details

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that matter, the most interesting parts of the case, the twists, the turns, everything

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that you would want to hear in the episode. So I think if it doesn't land well, if you're

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trying to convince someone to listen to this podcast that doesn't like True Crime, it's

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probably a no-go. But listen, I really do appreciate your efforts. Hey, if you're a brand

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for today. Thank you again for listening to 10 Minute Murder. See you next time.